Monkey Coins and its application

[DarthVoida]

Hello MD Staff, I was just thinking about certain aspects of the game like, gear or titles, that are out of reach for various reasons or another and pondered on how everyone in general would have an opportunity to gain access to such things. So I wanted to humbly suggest a potential resolution to gaining access to the previously mentioned aspects of the game.

To demonstrate the example I'll use the Battle for Supremacy (BFS). Unfortunately, BFS only runs during a small window of the day. MD is a wonderful server of international demographics, but with limited pool of pvp personals, rewards available via BFS is virtually unattainable in its current state. This is where my humble proposal seeks to offer a relief from the lack of access.

I would like to propose that certain aspects of the game be available via Monkey Coins, but to be fair, it would require a proportional amount of monkey coins. An average person would take about 3 to 4 months to acquire the BFS title so my proposal would be that the BFS title be available via 3 to 4 months worth of monkey coin grinding. Depending on faction and where the person is farming, one can farm monkey coins at a rate of 500 to 2000, and maybe even more depending on other factors. So my suggestion for the particular availability of BFS title would be that a person can exchange for this title for a nominal fee of let's say 180~200k monkey coins. Such an implementation would permit access to those that are not too privy or available for restricted events such as BFS because it is PVP based and only available for a short window of the day.

This method of granting access to content would allow for a universal access to content within the game that may otherwise not be available, be it due to whatever reason one has. Things such as expensive lottos (3k MC) that is only available in the monkey coin NPC that offer a low % chance of gaining items like Prayer Beads, Bhudda Relic necklaces are additional methods of implementations of my proposal.

Just my humble proposal and suggestion that may allow a person of any play style pvp or pve to have access to rewards with enough effort.

[LuXueqi]

It is a good idea in general, but what about balancing? Are the said items that can be purchased tradable? If so, then what rate is 'balanced' with the new rule change where you may now use an unlimited number of clients - what i mean to say is, what is preventing someone from opening 999 clients and farming MCP for a day and then channeling all their MCP to a main character and using that to get said 2-3 months worth item? it isnt fair for those that are unable to compete with these 'min-max' type players.

Also, you must consider what implications this has on the 'pay-to-win' concept since MCP can be bought using bananas. In general, people do not like donators for many reasons (albeit the only reason why they are able to play for free) and will just whine about making things more 'pay-to-win.'

[DarthVoida]

"via 3 to 4 months worth of monkey coin grinding"

The bound state is inherently implied in the statement for the implementation of such a system.

Monkey coins cannot be traded so your argument about loading "999" account is moot at best. The monkey coin packs that can be traded drop in CP, and if you went that route, it would still cost 10,000,000 gold at its CURRENT rate to achieve 200k monkey coins if your purchased the packs, but if you account for inflation that would most definitely occur, it can go well over 20,000,000 gold for the acquisition of such an item. I don't know about you, but the most gold I've seen on a single toon in 24 hour period via farming was about 40k and that was picking up only gold bars and leaves in IC. That was with a maxed modo that 1 shots on first hit of kangba on 4 spawn. So to address your "pay to win" hypothetical, it would still require vast in-game effort to get there. 1 account can farm at best 40k gold a day and that is with maxed toon, which calculates to 250 days of farming for 10m and whatever inbetween to 500 days at 20m gold to "pay to win". I know you will naturally incline youself to respond with "you can sell things by farming inferna" or etc, but that is assuming you are the only one running multiple accounts and someone is willing to buy your drops from inferna. The trade market for chroma pack to gold would begin to evaporate, so you will end up reverting to pure gold farming as i've stated in IC to acquire the gold to "pay to win". Bottom line is you can't just pay to win this system, and if you tried you end up paying dearly for it. Kinda like chroma beads in banana shop, its like 3 to 5 x the market value of chroma in gold even if you purchased banana peels to convert, it becomes a waste, so this idea is similar to that of the system that begins to penalize shortcuts. 

So let's address if someone farmed 2000 unbound monkey coin packs because they have "999" clients. I actually recently cleaned out CP and got 20 monkey coin packs over all and that took nearly an hour with a maxed Modo who can run non stop throughout the instance. A person would need to dedicate 100 hours minimum to farm the 2000 monkey coin packs. With the said "999" accounts you can theoretically create 100 runs, but there is 24 hours to a day and I accomplished what I accomplished solely focused on 1 window. Naturally if you attempt to run multiple runs at once, it would slow down progress so the turnover for each CP would balance out in the end. still requiring 100ish hours.

So best case scenario of your skepticism would still require the work of manual grind, considering if someone can tolerate such runs at a rate of 4 runs a day or 4 hours of doing CP, it would still take a month of such hardcore measures to acquire such an item.

You mention that it isn't "fair" for those that are unable to COMPETE with these "min-max" players. I'll say it like this, your skepticism of my proposal is like that of socialism towards capitalism. What you are actually saying is, slow down the players who are willing to put in time for those that don't want to. You are expecting those with the dedication to hold back for those that are unable to "compete." The model that I am proposing proposed in such a way that it allows those that can't "compete" stay the course and still work towards end game, but at their own pace. It does not hinder someone's efforts dedication towards "min-max" but also permits the benefit of someone playing the game at their pace and giving them access to a system that wasn't available to them before. Again, if they want to play slow, it's assumed that they are not that desperate for end game pvp because they would have converted to a "min-max" play style. This proposal is meant to allow access to end game content to everyone regardless of their game pace. It doesn't entitle anyone nor does it reward anyone for simply being what or who they are. It is meant to reward based on effort, so in the end the person that took a year to achieve this put in the same amount of time to acquiring it as the person that chose to hammer it in at a shorter interval. They still end up needing about 100 hours or 100 solo runs. That is the general concept that it is universally available at the same RATE of INVESTMENT.

Hope this helps clarify what my hopes are for such a system.
FYI, I already have prayer bead and etc, so its not because I don't have something and looking for a means to acquiring it, but rather reflected on how long it took me to get certain items and recognized the stratification that is evident in the game and it was actually a compromise of both socialistic and capitalistic view on creating a reconciled solution.

[LuXueqi]

True,
but what you have failed to address is also the fact that old players generally will have a stock pile of resources (such as my alts, etc, all having many thousands of MCP just lying around in stash waiting to be used for something useful) and would literally take mere seconds to get all the items using MCP to exchange for them.
I fully encourage the idea of using MCP or other in-game substitutes to get items as not everyone lives in a time zone where it is viable for their lives/work to go for BFS.
However, I put heavy emphasis on not making it just become something that could easily be 'abused' (MCP farming by multiple accs, etc.) as this just deters new players that could/would join the server (seeing current server population you probably do want new players) but choose not to as the game has a heavy bias on old players that are capable of throwing away lots of resources to fully gear an alt quickly to grind, etc. and in return reducing the number of available grind spots for these newer players (and they will probably need MCP the most so they can get kirin sigils to get gears to grind at even better spots/content).

The bottom line is, why use MCP when you could just introduce another item into the game that works similarly to MCP (just imagine this scenario: you stocked up 999 stacks of item x, and one day the admin decides that, seeing as how item x is currently useless, they now allow you to trade item x to something useful. is it fair? generally, yes since not everyone had a bunch of item x, but it isnt fair for those that did have lots of it. And this is basically as close as I can get to explaining how borked this choice would be. Not everyone stockpiled stacks of MCP but those that have, will now be at an unfair item advantage).
These new MCP like items could drop from other useless mobs in, say, lower level maps, to clear up space for the less fortunate people to be able to grind for past release's end game content to catch up.
This way you would put a clear line between 'past' content and 'new' content. This would also prevent the inevitable surge in MCP prices due to a higher demand for them and later on absolute depreciation of value once most people have maxed out whatever they needed and no longer need the MCPs.

[Voli]

I'm not sure anything like this is needed tbh. Your example of BfS is a poor one, as there are 3 openings for BfS during the day, each for two hours. Additionally, due to the restriction on accounts being lifted, I've been informed that people can log their alts to enter BfS in order to get the rewards. BfS is primarily a PvP event, just as the Buddha's Relics being from the Territory Wars event. These are ingame events that I don't believe need to be circumvented just so the rewards are easier for everyone to get. They are rewards for a reason, and players should work to get them. All the rewards from TW and BfS can be attained by anyone and are not restricted; they just require time and work. There is no easy ride for anyone.

Your suggestion for the ingame event rewards to be bought by Monkey Coins, imo, isn't great. No player wants to farm for months and months to get 180-200k Monkey Coins. Additionally, as Lu mentioned, this creates a vacuum for pay-to-play, where big donators can easily gain an advantage over other players, and while the admins might like that it wouldn't create a great atmosphere for new players in particular.

My initial idea was very similar to Lu's - make a new item, except maybe make a new event instead of it dropping. However, there is no point as I believe there is no issue with the current system. If anything, maybe removing the time restriction from the BfS/timed events, and perhaps boosting the amount of points/medals a player can gain per day from BfS so it doesn't take months of doing the event. As for other events that are timed, a similar solution can be found.

[DarthVoida]

Essentially, both of you are anti-old players because they have resources, but fail to recognize this type of system allows newer players to actually catch up.

Lux, i think fundamentally you have this idea of abuse in your mind but only apply that concept to older players. "seeing as how item x is currently useless...they unbind... stockpile 999x...etc." I hope you get this through your head, those that would "abuse" or have an "unfair" advantage, will get those items at an exponential rate compared to that of the rest of the server. The constant theme that they would end up with the item faster is a universal concept because of the play-style, regardless of what system is implemented. IF someone did stockpile monkey coins and they hadn't reaped the benefits of the rewards up to this point, then they missed out on the benefits enjoyed by someone that chose not to save monkey coins. Essentially, everyone makes decisions to do what they do and reap or miss out on the benefits or consequences of the past and that shouldn't hinder innovative ways to level the playing field for ALL. You're too focused on hindering those that can have advantage (old players and more invested ones) as opposed to the benefits that can be enjoyed by the majority of server that do not fit into the previous descriptions. Inflation and deflation is part of ANY economy, so for you to say that it would be bad to have inflation and deflation on monkey coins in the future seems a little naive.

Voli, anyone given the choice of not having something they want to working towards acquiring it slowly, I'm sure they would chose to grind for months to get the items they want. You say my example of BFS is poor by saying there is multiple openings... what part of international demographics make it hard to do bfs do you not understand? "I've been informed that people can log their alts to enter Bfs in order to get the rewards. Bfs is primarily a pvp event, just as Bhudda's Relic being from the Territory Wars event" You don't see the pathetic nature of having to load alts to enter Bfs and how it supports my idea that demographically its hard to fulfill? You've quite literally just proved my point within the same sentence of your opposition... also based on your logic of dismissing the Bfs as attainable via alts, is that how Territory Wars work also? You tried to say that Bfs is pvp event and that Twar is also; however, you mention by loading alts to fulfill Bfs PVP event they can obtain the rewards.... seriously??? Recognize and address the fact that those people have come to that point for pvp rewards. These are also the individuals that Lux is biased against, those highly invested, and are actually enjoying the rewards at a much more stratified setting than the system would provide.

The funniest thing to me is y'all demand so much from the admin team with your "simple" solutions. "Just add an item.... create a clear distinction between old and new content... create grinding zones for those that can't compete...remove time restrictions in bfs... boost medals so it doesn't take months *this is after you said "there is no easy ride for anyone*...etc" It's easy demand when you don't know how much work all of that is compared to just using in-game currency that is already intended to allow you to acquire items via grinding via that currency. By both of your logics', they should have made it so the vast majority of the items in the MD NPC should not be there since it's based on donations and/or all the items including the drake sigils should have converted to unbound items by now... but wait... its been 4+ years... and majority of the bound ones are still bound.. hmmm... so your hypothetical that admin would become whimsicle and make it so some items become unbound to create an unfair "advantage" has no basis... it's easy spit bull shit isn't it?

At this rate, it's becoming clear the two of you have actually put zero thought into this process and are only responding to knit pick while offering ridiculous solutions that you try to pass off as simple. If the solutions y'all are offering is so readily doable, why not offer your coding/programming services to the admin team for those and other areas of the game that may need some attention? Since y'all can offer development based solutions out of your ass, surely you can implement them no problem?

My proposal had everyone in mind, including the staff, who gives us the privilege of enjoying this game in its current capacity. I don't make naive demands without thinking through what it would take for the implementation. My request is that the two of you actually reflect on the server's history before responding because much of your responses seem to carry a heavy bit of ignorance.

Lu since you are so focused on the vacuum of economy, I'll throw you a bone. MCP were 10k 4+ years ago and now nearly 5~7k, so it depreciated about 50 to 30%. I can most certainly guarantee that without the removal of something, MCP will NEVER go above 15k.

[LuXueqi]

"At this rate, it's becoming clear the two of you have actually put zero thought into this process and are only responding to knit pick while offering ridiculous solutions that you try to pass off as simple. If the solutions y'all are offering is so readily doable, why not offer your coding/programming services to the admin team for those and other areas of the game that may need some attention? Since y'all can offer development based solutions out of your ass, surely you can implement them no problem?"
boi, you do know you only need to: 1. create new NPC with whatever texture you want (re-use old ones, etc). Add functionality to allow items to be exchanged (or - easier - copy & paste an existing NPC, then refactor their exchange table). 3. Add items into the 'drop tables' of monsters (and probably increase their levels) which basically needs like 3-5 edits max, run that is a script for all affected mobs, and voila, youre done. It's not rocket science.

You can message me any time perry if youre lookin for help - but I dont do it for free, of course

I was originally going to write a long and elaborate response, but I dont see any reason in trying to reason with you considering you think I am biased against old players (somehow getting that assumption from not wanting to create an unfair advantage I presume). One final word though: new content shouldnt be mixed with old content (hence why you need HDS for lumen gear and not WLS). Would it be fair for newer players that did not have a pile of WLS available once lumen got released if it needed WLS instead of HDS? No. Would it be advantageous to those that already had WLS? Yes. I rest my case.

[Perryl]

what is preventing someone from opening 999 clients and farming MCP for a day and then channeling all their MCP to a main character and using that to get said 2-3 months worth item? it isnt fair for those that are unable to compete with these 'min-max' type players.

That would be some dedication. Besides, who that has a good enough PC that they can run 999 clients is going to spend their valuable time running 999 clients to get what they could get with a few dollars.

The people who would run 999 clients don't have the technical ability to do so. We did, in fact, factor this into our decision. We wanted to spend more time on development and less time on banning the same people over and over again. The few people who did this and got banned for it were using up time that would benefit a larger group of people being used elsewhere.  For them to just come back, make new accounts, and do it again.

We believe that if we spend more time on development that it will satisfy more people than being vigilant about banning people for things like having too many accounts. Something that was difficult to prove in the first place because everybody's dog has an account.

[Perryl]

1st thought on this, well, we just finished customizing BFS awards as part of an upcoming patch, but it won't make the title easier to get. We don't really think it should.

I think the idea of bringing alts in to BFS to stack the enemy team so you can win easier is... I mean, as far as I'm concerned people doing that should be banned. lol.

So, I don't think we would create a new item for people to farm to get access to items they normally have to obtain with effort. I like exclusive content. I think players like to know that something they have is unique and will stay unique. For example, we have some content in the auction that we keep as auction exclusives only. We don't add them to the NPCs or anything because we want people who won those items in the auction to feel as good about winning them tomorrow as they do today.

There are honestly too many new features to even accurately talk about this idea. Things changed significantly in the upcoming patch because that's the direction JD took and we don't want to undo things they did that we think make sense. As you guys discussed, items become devalued over time. The economy fluctuates. Yes, the person who has a fat wallet is at an advantage, but let's be honest, the server went down the other day because of an autopay failure. Meaning, we aren't making enough money to pay for the rent. Don't think you have any big wallets to worry about. The person who has been playing since 2013 also has an advantage. That's just the way it is. In any game, and always will be really. Unless you're playing a game where everyone starts from scratch every month, like a round based game or something. This will happen.

We are considering many changes that I think will address the points made in this thread in a way that all of you will agree is good, or not, we'll see. lol.

[acc5]

1st thought on this, well, we just finished customizing BFS awards as part of an upcoming patch, but it won't make the title easier to get. We don't really think it should.

CT title is better than BFS one, yet it's okay for GM's to solo CT for players to obtain title. I don't get the logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers,
Nik

[DarthVoida]

what is preventing someone from opening 999 clients and farming MCP for a day and then channeling all their MCP to a main character and using that to get said 2-3 months worth item? it isnt fair for those that are unable to compete with these 'min-max' type players.

The few people who did this and got banned for it were using up time that would benefit a larger group of people being used elsewhere.  For them to just come back, make new accounts, and do it again.

We believe that if we spend more time on development that it will satisfy more people than being vigilant about banning people for things like having too many accounts. Something that was difficult to prove in the first place because everybody's dog has an account.

+1 to Perryl, this is why MD will always end up on top. The fact that you continue to evolve as a dev / admin is awesome. I look forward to patch 44 and hope people are thankful instead of critical of all the volunteered efforts of the Admins, Gms', and Gss'.

Regardless of the end product, know one thing, I am thankful for you and your staff's efforts. I stumbled on here while I was going strong on Official and honestly enjoyed it from the very beginning so I played both. I'm glad I selected this server as my private server experience. I look forward to your updates!! Keep up the awesome sleepless nights XD, and #doubledonation PLUS cash shop sale )))

[EvilFlippy]

1st thought on this, well, we just finished customizing BFS awards as part of an upcoming patch, but it won't make the title easier to get. We don't really think it should.

CT title is better than BFS one, yet it's okay for GM's to solo CT for players to obtain title. I don't get the logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers,
Nik

And I'd do it again. Just to piss you off and give you more to talk about.

[acc5]

Was referring to the server overall, not what's affecting me. It affected me when I was actively playing the server and we weren't geared enough to do it on our own =/ How can it affect me now if my current time spent on the server is close to none and we're geared enough to get it? .-.,
A for the effort tho o/

[Tcholok]

CT title is better than BFS one, yet it's okay for GM's to solo CT for players to obtain title. I don't get the logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's been litigated and explained already. Everyone seemed satisfied with the result so I'm not sure why you're still bringing it up. Give it a rest